Incorrect Rule for Miss

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Re: Incorrect Rule for Miss

Postby csmarkus on Sun Jan 10, 2010 4:07 pm

Ian, please keep in mind that the miss rule is tricky. Professional players are sometimes mistaken, even those who are commentating live on TV. Therefore, we simply cannot do any better than listen to Eirian Williams who says:

Eirian Williams wrote:How can a Foul and a Miss be called if the first impact of the cue ball was with the ball on? Sorry, but that is not a correct call - the player has correctly hit the ball-on! Whether the cue ball goes on and enters the pocket is immaterial - it is not a Foul and a Miss.


It was not me, it was Eirian Williams who said it. If the white hits the correct ball first, it's not a miss. Perfectly covered by the rules and simple, too.

ianm27 wrote:I was going to draw this post to Brandon's attention


Please go ahead with it.

ianm27 wrote:Maybe, once a concensus has been reached on the correct implementation of the rule, I will ask Brandon to look into this with a view to amending the program.


A consensus will never be reached. Please take a few minutes to think about this again and listen to Eirian Williams (who is he?). He knows the rules and he said the miss rule implementation in iSnooker was wrong. Two years ago. Maybe it's high time to correct it.

However, bear in mind that this is a computer generated simulation and therefore can never anticipate or decide intent.


Come on, let's take Eirian Williams' words seriously. It doesn't matter what happens after the white correctly hits the ball on. Read him again if it's still not clear.

proking, please apply your last sentence to yourself.
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Re: Incorrect Rule for Miss

Postby THE_GRIM_REAPER on Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:05 am

Warp wrote:Hi,

If you make contact with the object ball and hit it legally then make a foul after the legal contact the game offers foul and miss, this is incorrect should only be a fould.

You just don't like the magic of jammy shots because you just have rare luck to do that. I will always say it is just A GAME however some players will never understand that.
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Re: Incorrect Rule for Miss

Postby JonnyOSullivan on Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:58 pm

csmarkus wrote:A consensus will never be reached. Please take a few minutes to think about this again and listen to Eirian Williams (who is he?). He knows the rules and he said the miss rule implementation in iSnooker was wrong. Two years ago. Maybe it's high time to correct it.


It was time two years ago (and then some). One question that always come into my mind with regard to calling a miss when you go in-off on isnooker is when did you last see that happen in professional snooker? I cannot remember such an instance, and on innumerable occasions the white has been dumped in the pocket deliberately but it is never called. But it is the other way round here, and quite unnecessarily wrong.
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Re: Incorrect Rule for Miss

Postby csmarkus on Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:06 pm

P.I2.O--K.I.N.G wrote:I have done a lot of research in to this and also asked a lot of opinions of my fellow pro mates who still play on the curcuit...

Good! Do they have the same referees' licence as Eirian Williams? I suppose no...

Now, the ref can definitley force a the balls to be replaced upon a in off if he feels it was deliberate

Wrong. He cannot. Read Eirian Williams' words again if you still don't understand. Or read the rules.

but its very rare it will happen, it has happened though

That referee who called a miss in such an event was wrong.

The reason being like previously said is because with the red being hit first, its not classed has a miss, the ref if on the rare accasion see unspoting conduct will only call the miss (not actually meaning a miss) but just stating the opp has the option to replace all balls to the current state.

This is completely fictional. A correct referee will not call a miss if the correct ball is hit first. Unsportsmanlike behavior is covered by other rules, not the miss rule. BTW, deliberately going in-off is a perfectly legal an perfectly sportsmanlike way of going back to baulk, it may be worth the four penalty points.

Anyways i have to my own conclusion that the game never decide, but i must now agree the game should not call a miss, simply cos it would rarely happen that a player goes in off to gain advantage.

Fine! We do have the consensus in this issue then! :)

Ian, will you please go on with drawing this topic to Brandon's attention so he could correct the miss rule implementation in the next version?
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Re: Incorrect Rule for Miss

Postby csmarkus on Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:46 pm

proking, i'm afraid you are not telling the truth. Eirian Williams, the pro referee would not say or even write such nonsense. I'm going to ask him if he did sent that message to you. The answer will shock either you or me!

Until the answer is here, Ian, will you go on with notifying Brandon? The consensus exists anyway.
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Re: Incorrect Rule for Miss

Postby ianm27 on Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:36 pm

I have sent a link to this thread to Brandon
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Re: Incorrect Rule for Miss

Postby bodo on Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:47 am

csmarkus, could you ask Mr. Williams about tapping the white intentionally, like to the corner jaw, when snookers are needed? Miss or not?
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Re: Incorrect Rule for Miss

Postby Stratician on Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:38 am

I'm going to have to read the official rules, although I would think there are situations where you can quite easily foul (intentionally) but going in off (i.e. a Billiards-Type Shot). So shouldn't this be a Foul & Intentional Miss too?
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Re: Incorrect Rule for Miss

Postby ko0p on Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:55 am

If the ref deems it intentional yeah.

But if i want the white to be back near the baulk area and it goes in off into the yellow pocket, is that a miss? I'd say not, wasn't my intention.
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Re: Incorrect Rule for Miss

Postby csmarkus on Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:31 am

Thank you Brandon for looking into this, and thanks Ian for bringing Brandon here.

Stratician wrote:I would think there are situations where you can quite easily foul (intentionally) but going in off (i.e. a Billiards-Type Shot). So shouldn't this be a Foul & Intentional Miss too?

The answer is simple: no.

This part of the miss rule is easy to handle: If the correct ball is hit first, no miss will be called.

Contrary to common belief, the referee's opinion does not matter in this case! The white may go in-off, it may jump off the table, other colors may go into pockets, whatever may happen, the shot is not a miss if the correct ball was hit first.

Yes, you are right, the player can intentionally go in-off from a red to go back to the baulk area. However, the referee will say only "foul" and not "foul and a miss". Why? Because the correct ball was hit first.

Regarding iSnooker, the solution looks quite simple:
Code: Select all
if (correct_ball_was_hit_first() == true) {
    miss_is_called = false;
}


There is another small detail which is not correct in iSnooker now: if snookers are needed before the foul stroke but not after the foul stroke (because of the penalty points), iSnooker will call a miss. However, the rule says:
Section III, Rule 14 wrote:...the referee shall call FOUL AND A MISS unless either player needed snookers before, or as a result of, the stroke played and the referee is satisfied that the miss was not intentional.

It means that iSnooker should check the score difference not only after the shot but also before the penalty points are awarded:
Code: Select all
if (snookers_needed_by_either_player_before_shot() ||
    snookers_needed_by_either_player_after_penalty_points_are_awarded()) {
    miss_is_called = false;
}


I believe that with these small modifications iSnooker could become much better from the miss rule point of view. I am aware that the full blown implementation of the whole miss rule is impossible. The computer cannot determine wheter the white failed to hit the correct ball because it was intentional or the player did his best to hit it but failed. In this case, iSnooker's current solution is the best choice: call a miss!

There is another part of the miss rule which talks about a situation where the object ball can be hit full in the face. In this case, if the player fails to hit the correct object ball in three consecutive attempts, he will lose the frame. As far as I know, this is not currently implemented in iSnooker. It may be a nice addition sometime in the future. I think the first two issues (with suggested pseudo code implementation) are much more important.

Please consider putting the suggested improvements in the next version. Thank you very much for your efforts in advance!
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